S5 E1: Dark Ride of the Soul

In this Rant/Rave episode, Conor and Caroline are shining a light on two Fantasyland dark rides from the Magic Kingdom. Is Peter Pan's Flight one unhappy thought away from crashing to the ground in a heap of decades old pixie dust? And was it right to take away Mr. Toad's license in favor of a honey-loving bear with The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh? Keep your arms and legs inside the ride vehicle because this episode floats like a galleon and stings like a honeybee!

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Transcript

Caroline Aimetti 0:00

Um, the beard is definitely doing it for me.

Conor Perkins 0:02

Really?

Caroline Aimetti 0:03

I really like it.

Conor Perkins 0:04

I just need to prove that I can book Heated Rivalry. Yes. Like I'm supposed to play Harris and need to be on Heated Rivalry.

Caroline Aimetti 0:10

Oh, I needed to talk to you about that because um once you do that.

Conor Perkins 0:14

So I have it.

Caroline Aimetti 0:15

That's what that's how you manifest. After you film the first season, I need you to marry somebody Canadian and then done. I need you to make me your ward. Absolutely.

Conor Perkins 0:28

I'll be like, this is my ward, Pristine Daae.

Caroline Aimetti 0:35

We figured out that my drag, my drag persona is Pristine Daae. Nobody steal that, or I will kill you.

Conor Perkins 1:33

I'm Conor Perkins.

Opening

Caroline Aimetti 1:35

And I'm Caroline Aimetti. This is a Disney podcast for grown ups because we believe that magic gets better with age. Listener discretion is advised.

Conor Perkins 1:44

Welcome to all of our returning listeners and viewers, and thank you so much for coming back. Uh, and to anyone new who's just joining us, welcome. Thanks so much for hitting play. Please also remember to hit follow or subscribe wherever you're getting the podcast and opt in for notifications if you're on YouTube. And then once we get to the end of the episode, make sure that you hit five stars, leave a comment or a rating and review wherever you're getting the podcast. It's one of the best things you can do to help us get seen in search results, get pushed, you know, to other people, all that good stuff. Because this is the first episode of a new season.

Caroline Aimetti 2:16

Yay, yay.

Conor Perkins 2:19

Yeah. So if you were wondering how long of a break we were going to take between season four and season five, the answer is none.

Caroline Aimetti 2:24

No breaks.

Conor Perkins 2:25

So here we are. We're back. Lots of new stuff happening in season five. So, you know, if you haven't been made aware already, we do have a Patreon that we have just launched, the Poor Unfortunate Patreon. You can opt in for whatever plan you want. All the plans are under $10 a month, and they give you some exclusive bonus content, including ad-free episodes, um, bonus episodes, and "Caroline, What's New?"

Caroline Aimetti 2:52

I was gonna say, let them know. "Caroline, What's New?" is for for Patreon folks only now. Yeah. So and there's been some Disney news that I'm itching to discuss with everyone. So you might wanna you might wanna join the Patreon.

Conor Perkins 3:03

Yeah, so go check it out.

Caroline Aimetti 3:05

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 3:05

And thanks for doing that. Thank you also, everyone, for all of the well wishes and all of the beautiful comments and thoughts and energy that you've been sending our way around our hundredth episode.

Caroline Aimetti 3:17

Yes, it meant so much to us. It was so it came at the perfect time, and it was really, really very surprisingly emotional. Very so thank you all for supporting us and getting us into our like kindergarten age of this podcast. Yeah, the podcast is like a kindergartner now.

Rant (Caroline)

Conor Perkins 3:33

It's a kindergarten, season five, baby. Yeah, uh, and so here's to the next hundred episodes, and we're kicking off pretty strong with another round of our cycle. Uh, so we're kicking off with a rant and rave today.

Caroline Aimetti 3:47

It feels like it's been ages since we've done a rant and rave.

Conor Perkins 3:50

It kind of has been has been.

Caroline Aimetti 3:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. We get we gave you a lot of bonuses at the end of season four. So that's why. Yeah.

Conor Perkins 3:59

Lots of, lots of, lots of bono, bono, bono, bono, bonus.

Caroline Aimetti 4:02

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 4:03

So, Caroline, why don't you tell everybody what we are going to do today?

Caroline Aimetti 4:07

So, this is actually a little bit inspired by the 100th episode where our friend Becca, who sent in a lovely message to us, talked about how much he enjoyed when we talk about the parks. And as Conor said in that episode, we're always conscious not to make folks feel excluded if they're not regular park goers or if they've never been to the Disney parks. But we've gotten great feedback from you all that you enjoy when we talk about the parks. And it was time to do a little ranting and raving about them.

Conor Perkins 4:33

Also, this episode kind of harkens back to like our very first one.

Caroline Aimetti 4:37

It does. We were trying to do, we were trying to do a little callback with this too. Easter egg, for those of you who know. Um, so we are talking about two attractions today. And much like our pilot episode today, we are going to be talking about two Walt Disney World attractions. I have the rant, Conor has the rave, and we are going to be talking about two Fantasyland dark rides.

Conor Perkins 5:04

Yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 5:05

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 5:05

I know what your rant is gonna be. And I feel like this is one that also has kind of low-key been a long time coming.

Caroline Aimetti 5:13

Yes, it has come up in like dribs and drabs before over the past like couple of seasons, and now it's time to like just go there.

Conor Perkins 5:19

Yeah, get the poison out.

Caroline Aimetti 5:21

It's just really does it did feel like that a little bit.

Conor Perkins 5:24

Yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 5:25

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 5:26

All right, let's get the poison out, baby.

Caroline Aimetti 5:27

Let's get the poison out and let's rant, baby. Okay. Woo! It's actually been a while. I'm feeling rusty and scared. You've got excited and scared. Okay. So today I am going to be ranting about Peter Pan's Flight. Now, if you love this ride, don't get yourself into a tizzy. Just let me explain. As I always say, let her cook. Okay. I'm going to launch into a monologue to begin this. So just sit down and let me explain myself. Okay. So if you recall, during last season's hot takes episode, we were sent a hot take that said that Peter Pan's Flight is not worth more than a 20-minute wait. And it was one that wasn't too hard for me to defend. I most recently rode the attraction two years ago during the Walt Disney World Hotel Guest extended hours at Magic Kingdom. It's personally my favorite time to be in Fantasyland. Not only is it because the crowds and the wait times are low, but there is just like a special kind of magic that starts happening in Fantasyland when the nighttime lighting is on. You can really hear the area loops. Conor's laughing because I had myself a good ass cry last time. And I send Conor some truly unhinged. And also singing. Some actually unhinged. I was sober too. I know. I was sober. I sent him these like unhinged voice memos. I was singing. I was like crying. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. I was going through it. I'm still going through it. It's another story for another time. I was like singing. I was like singing Beauty and the Beast. I don't even know. Anyway, pretend that never happened. Never. So something magical happens there at night. Okay. That's your proof. Anyway, I was able to basically walk right onto Peter Pan's Flight at that time. I hadn't been on in ages. I remember nothing about the queue beside it being kind of like torturous, um, which actually now has some very cute updated features when you're not crowded into it for hours in the sweltering heat. And after not having to wait and having, you know, a little flying ship to myself, I thought, yeah, like that's a pleasant ride. But no one should be waiting a long time for it. Peter Pan's Flight has an average wait time of 51 minutes, with wait times way more often than not reaching 90 to 120 minutes. That's where it is when I always see it when I visit. Yeah. While Journey of The Little Mermaid, for example, also in Fantasyland with a similar family-friendly nature, a better cue, and even better tech has an average of 17 minutes.

Conor Perkins 8:05

And like the 17 minutes, it's kind of like low-key.

Caroline Aimetti 8:09

They fly about 10.

Conor Perkins 8:10

Well, it takes you like 10 to walk through the queue.

Caroline Aimetti 8:12

100%. And that's why it goes so quickly. You're constantly, you're very much constantly in motion. It's a different experience. And I have wondered about this for ages. Do kids have a deeper love for Peter Pan than I understand? It wasn't one of my big childhood movies. I mean, is it something that first-time guests with kids flock back to just because it's a classic? I have some answers for you and we will get to them. But now for a moment, let's go back to my love of Fantasyland at night. I love Fantasyland in the day too, but I simply cannot deal with the lines and the crowds and the sun for too, too long. But I really do love a dark ride. It's so much fun to be immersed in classic Disney movies. They're cool, they're relaxing, and there's something about them that feels simultaneously nostalgic and safe, but also like magical and exciting. But as an adult, I'm exclusively riding them at night in order to match the quality of the experience I'm getting with the time I'm committing to waiting in line for them. To me, the experience of Peter Pan's Flight in Magic Kingdom in Walt Disney World is symptomatic of a larger problem with Fantasyland overall. We're going to focus on this attraction, not only in ways that it could be improved, but as a major indicator of the attention Walt Disney World's Fantasyland needs.

Conor Perkins 9:30

Yes. Yes.

Caroline Aimetti 9:32

Okay. So just to cite some sources, lots of sources here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna cite a couple throughout, but a lot of big ones just to shout them out right away. YesterWorld on YouTube, uh, disneyclassics.com, Disney Wiki, Attractions Magazine, Thrill Data, and Wikipedia, of course.

Conor Perkins 9:48

Thrill data is Thrill Data is good, very interesting stuff.

Caroline Aimetti 9:53

So as always, a little background information. Peter Pan's Flight can be found in five out of the six Disney parks across the world: Disneyland, Walt Disney World, Tokyo Disneyland, Disneyland Paris, and Shanghai Disneyland. Background information wise, I'm going to focus on Disneyland, the original, and Walt Disney World, the one that came next, and the one I'm going to focus on then for the rest of the brand. So Peter Pan's Flight was an opening day attraction in Disneyland in July 1955, originally just named Peter Pan. Now, dark rides as a concept didn't originate in Disney parks. They started appearing in the 19th century called scenic railways or pleasure railways. They were often limited to narrow tracked passageways and cardboard cutout scenes. Peter Pan's Flight was an exciting departure from existing dark rides and even other ones in Fantasyland at the time, as it utilized an overhead conveyor system to transport guests in pirate galleons over show scenes, giving them the experience of flying, and leading Disney to use 3D show scenes and forced perspective to make guests feel like they were flying high over London or right above a battle in Neverland. The three opening day Fantasyland dark rides in Disneyland were Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, Snow White, which is often like Snow White Scary Adventures, that variation, and Peter Pan. The former two attractions were more traditional dark rides. But what all three attractions had in common were that guests were meant to ride through them in the role of the film's protagonist, meaning that Snow White, Mr. Toad, and Peter Pan did not appear in their attractions because guests became them. There is a really horrifying piece of concept art for Peter Pan, in which Peter Pan was the vehicle. So guests were riding basically on Peter's back, which had a huge pole through it to suspend it from the track above. We'll insert him here if we have it.

Conor Perkins 11:52

Low-key, that's kind of like what I want to do to Peter through most of the movie, anyway. So please see practically imperfect.

Caroline Aimetti 11:58

Practically imperfect being.

Conor Perkins 11:59

He deserves it.

Caroline Aimetti 12:00

Maybe appropriate. Hilarious. So guest confusion around this concept led to the attraction's first update in 1960. And Peter Pan was actually the first Fantasyland Dark Ride to get an update. Updates to the attraction in 1960 included additions to the opening nursery scene, a little facelift for parts of the London cityscape, a change in placement for Skull Rock, more speakers, wind effects, and more realistic character figures. Aside from some small adjustments here and there, the ride largely stayed in this form until 1983, when Disneyland began work on New Fantasyland. Did you know that Disney had used this name before the Magic Kingdom edition to Fantasyland? I did not know that. So if you look up New Fantasyland, I should have too, but I didn't. So this led to a major facelift of the ride's exterior. Walt's original plan for Fantasyland was for all of the attraction exteriors to look like part of a castle courtyard, but time and budgeting led to more of a medieval fair look in the 1950s. New Fantasyland construction gave exteriors a more sophisticated village, courtyard, Bavarian feel. And Peter Pan got updates inspired by its sister attraction that had opened in Walt Disney World by this point. And we will talk about that in just a moment. So why did I lay all of this out if we're focusing on Walt Disney World? Just listen to all of those updates, not only in tech, but expansion of character presence, the improvement of narrative, and not to mention an elevation in the appearance of the attraction's exterior. The attraction also got another update in Disneyland in 2015. Has the Walt Disney World version gotten quite the same TLC? Let's explore. So let's talk about the Walt Disney World version. When Peter Pan's Flight opened in 1971, it already featured advancements from the Disneyland version, which, if we remember, was basically still in its 1960 update form in 1971 when Walt Disney World opened. The Disney World version featured the following additions: the Darling Children in animatronic form in the nursery, an improved London scene, the addition of Mermaid Lagoon, Peter and Hook's fight in the sails of the pirate ship with Wendy on the plank, and Hook in the jaws of the crocodile. So lots of major changes to the overall thrust of the story, which I applaud, as well as the very major addition of animatronic characters. The ride is about three minutes long with no height requirement. It sits next to PhilharMagic and across from It's a Small World currently. The official description from the Disney World site is as follows: Board your pirate galleon and follow Peter Pan as he beckons you to join him on the flight of a lifetime. Wave goodbye to Nana and join the Darling children on a gentle cruise over London, where Big Ben and Tower Bridge light up the night sky. Descend into Neverland between glowing volcanoes and sparkling waterfalls. As you swoop into Pirate's Cove, there's danger ahead. Can Peter Pan defeat the dastardly Captain Hook and return his young companions safely to London? Or will someone meet an untimely end in the jaws of a ticking crocodile? Now, that description is about as long as the ride. But anyway, just a couple of other facts about it. The exterior of the attraction is themed, like a lot of the other attractions in the area, to look like a colorful medieval-style tent entrance, with Peter and the Darling children flying in front of a cloud with the ride's title. You can see into the outdoor, though covered portion of the queue, as well as the loading zone of the ride itself. So here is the flow of the attraction as it stands in Magic Kingdom's Fantasyland today. And I will also make note where adjustments have been made since opening day. You walk through a queue that was updated in 2014 to include a corridor with interactive murals. Now, let me say, this is a really nice improvement and was absolutely lovely to walk through when I went during those extended hotel hours. But imagining these hallways packed with families during the day is giving me major Ratatouille red room vibes. They are so narrow.

Conor Perkins 16:22

I went with Erin. We did it at rope drop. We rope dropped it and we still like it was still packed. It was rough. It was rough.

Caroline Aimetti 16:31

It's rough. So then these corridors lead to the next part of the updated queue. The exterior of the Darling home leading to their hallways and their home, and then the nursery where Tinkerbell is flitting around, causing a little bit of mayhem. Now, this effect is super adorable and fun and magical. Do not get me wrong, I'm absolutely feeling it. Um, there's a really cool element here where you get to see your shadow on the nursery wall, a la Peter, and then have an interactive experience with other shadow elements that appear on it. It's all very cool and fun. Uh, and from what I remember from walking through it very quickly, this portion of the queue is air conditioned. It is. Good stuff. When you watch walkthroughs of the attraction on YouTube, this is usually where the video kind of just skips ahead to getting loaded onto the ride because after the nursery, you're sent back into the hell that is the winding outdoor, again, like I said, covered but still outdoor portion of the queue. I have so many childhood memories of cues like these that constantly zigzag you closer to the loading zone, getting your hopes up, only to move you even further away than you ever were before, endlessly in the Florida heat with lots of small children all around you. So once you're loaded into your pirate ship, you fly into the Darling nursery, past the animatronics of Wendy, John, and Michael, passing through the window and past Nana toward the streets of London, and then over the iconic London scene with the Thames, Big Ben, and more looking miniature below you. Then the landscape below becomes the trees and waterfalls of Neverland. You pass the Lost Boys, Mermaid Lagoon, and the updated scene of Tiger Lily and her tribe. This scene was updated in 2024 to remove offensive and caricature-esque depictions of Native American-inspired characters from the film. It now depicts the Neverland tribe's harvest celebration with Tiger Lily and her grandmother performing the traditional fancy shawl butterfly dance and other members of the tribe accompanying them on a drum. Definitely a huge win, a necessary update, and it's always great to see Disney carrying through on the promised dedication to cultural sensitivity in the parks and beyond. Good stuff. Then it's on to the pirate ship scene with Wendy walking the plank and Hook and Peter fighting on the mast above. After passing Tick Tock below, it's clear that Peter has prevailed, and you fly past him standing at the ship's wheel with the Darling children and Tinkerbell before seeing Hook in the jaws of the croc, before you pass a mural of the golden flying pirate ship and unload, and it's over. Okay. So what am I complaining about here? It all sounds so cute and nice, and I'm just the worst, right? But like hear me out, first of all. Based on the description, I'm sure you can get the sense that this is a really brief ride. Now I know that this isn't unusual for child-friendly dark rides based on classic Disney films, but again, we're gonna bring it back to Under the Sea: Journey of The Little Mermaid. That's about double the length of this ride, clocking in at about six and a half minutes. Not only does this give guests enough time to really sit and cool off, which is key to moods and endurance in a park day, but it makes it feel like waiting in line was much more worthwhile. But possibly even more importantly, it actually allows enough time for the narrative to unfold. Granted, Peter Pan is a little bit of a simpler story, and you could argue has maybe some fewer iconic scenes than The Little Mermaid, but maybe, maybe not. But my favorite parts of Peter Pan's Flight aren't in Neverland at all. They're the nursery and the flight over London because they feel so establishing. They really take their time. The Neverland portion of this ride is kind of like a montage at best. As I admitted earlier, Peter Pan has never been my favorite. But I actually think that a Peter Pan ride could have the potential to increase my love for the film because I can think of the feeling I have when I ride when I watch that scene in the film. But within feet of each other, Hook and Peter are fighting, and then we see Peter in victory mode at the wheel of the ship. There's no suspense or narrative thrust here. Like I said, it just feels like a montage. Now listen, I know that this is based on literally one of the OG attractions ever made in any Disney park. Made in the 1950s when what we asked of any ride was completely different. I also know that this ride is very much for some of Disney World's littlest guests. And it's more likely than not more about, you know, pretty colors flying, characters we like, music and vibes than the story. I get it. But I just have to note that for me, it's not quite doing enough to really immerse me in the magic of Neverland and Peter. The magic is just about the flying, period. So that leads me to my next point where I have to acknowledge what is going right here, which is the flight concept of the ride. What it does to mix up the traditional dark ride concept really can't be underestimated, especially if you've ever ridden the other Disneyland opening day rides like Mr. Toad's. This track system alone makes that ride feel like you're at your local parking lot fair. Okay. I love it though. Don't get me wrong. Before I found out the main reason this attraction has such insane wait time. I truly thought that everyone's inner child was just longing to fly. And it honestly kind of touched me a little. For a dark ride that is based on a 1950s attraction and film, this does get creative with concept. But what we're getting here for me is still not enough to match the wait times. So let's explain that. It's that the hourly capacity for this ride is simply too low. Though I've seen some variations online and there doesn't seem to be a single source for ride capacities, it sounds like Peter Pan's Flight has an average capacity of about 800 guests per hour, with each vehicle holding up to three guests. Really, three is a squeeze for adults. It's like two adults and a child, I would say. In comparison, Under the Sea has a theoretical hourly capacity of 2,200 guests. Interestingly, though, according to one chart from Crooks in Walt Disney World on WordPress, Winnie the Pooh has a theoretical hourly capacity of 850 guests. That attraction and Peter Pan share some characteristics based on beloved and nostalgic IP, unique vehicle movement, and child-friendly, largely not frightening storylines. But Winnie the Pooh's wait times hardly ever reach the length of Peter Pan. I mean, basically never. And I find Winnie the Pooh to be way more technologically advanced, enchanting, and fun. So maybe it really does come down to the desire for an original attraction experience after all. But let's talk about the upkeep. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you've probably heard me tell the story, but here we go again. Around 2007 or so, I was riding Peter Pan's Flight with my family, and we all noticed that the volcano in Neverland appeared to be lined on the inside with tin foil. Okay. And I looked it up online, and other people noticed the same thing. Okay. It became a family joke forever, and I know that it wasn't really that. But this memory reminds me of another submission that we got during our hot takes episode, which was that many rides in Disney are only good because of the nostalgia factor and are kind of old and creaky in reality. And that experience really feels like that. Knowing what Disney World costs, if I brought someone who's never been before, I would feel the need to explain away or apologize for seeing something like that on Peter Pan.

Conor Perkins 24:28

You always have to explain the tinfoil volcano.

Caroline Aimetti 24:31

I know.

Conor Perkins 24:32

There's no excuse for it in 2026.

Caroline Aimetti 24:35

And honestly, in some ways, I do think I would kind of be making excuses for the ride in general. I know no one would be expecting something mind-blowing from it, but if I'm being honest, in addition to the narrative issue I talked about earlier, the animatronics in this ride just aren't doing it for me. And I think at the very least, those should be updated. But I mean, I personally could go for an entire aesthetic overhaul of the ride, and we're gonna talk about that too. Did you notice how often the original Peter Pan ride was updated in Disneyland? During that 1982, 1983 new Fantasyland reconstruction, Disney was willing to literally level Snow White and completely rebuild it in order to have it keep up with the times. And I think Peter Pan's Flight at this point could use that kind of energy. I know that at this point, that might be super controversial because, again, it's seeming like a lot of the draw here is getting to ride something so original and nostalgic with so many parts that were originally touched by Walt's vision. But the updates to the queue really signify to me how much potential there could be to this ride if it got a quite serious update. Tinkerbell's nursery effects are so, so magical. And what I feel watching those and playing with shadows are how I should feel on the attraction as well. But when I ride, I feel like I'm almost above myself. I'm watching myself technically experience the nostalgia without really feeling any of the magic that that should bring. Oof. It's true. And I, and every time I'm on there, I don't want to feel this way. And I'm willing myself to feel differently. And I don't like pixie dust and never land and flying and never growing up. I should want to live inside that feeling. And I just, I don't really. If I visit Disney World and I don't get on Peter Pan, I'm very much okay. And an even bigger issue here that's going to connect all of this to the larger issue with Fantasyland is that international parks are getting equivalent attractions that are blowing this one out of the water.

Conor Perkins 26:46

I would be fighting you tooth and nail about Peter Pan, like in this rant, because I'm like a Peter Pan apologist for the ride at least, if I had not seen what they're doing overseas with this attraction.

Caroline Aimetti 26:59

Yes. So even though all of the versions of Peter Pan's Flight are relatively consistent across the parks around the world, Peter Pan's Neverland Adventure has now entered the chat in Fantasy Springs in Tokyo Disney SEA. So here's what happens on this attraction. Guests board boats in this attraction too, but they are higher capacity trackless vehicles that remind me a bit of Remy's Ratatouille Adventure or the amazing adventures of Spider-Man at Universal. They don 3D glasses to take an adventure to rescue John from Captain Hook's band of pirates. Tinkerbell sprinkles your ship with pixie dust, and using screens, it looks like you're flying. All of the beloved film characters appear on screens in this ride, with screens blending with practical sets, a la Na'vi River Journey, for example, to create an immersive experience. Now here's what's interesting to me: this attraction has all the elements of Peter Pan's Flight: a pirate battle, a sprinkling of pixie dust that makes you fly, the gorgeous nature of Neverland, all of the beloved characters, a flight over London. So it's interesting to me that this attraction was created when Tokyo Disneyland already has Peter Pan's Flight. Even though it's a bit more thrilling and maybe slightly less small child friendly because of the 3D glasses aspect, it does make me wonder like, do we sense that something is lacking in Peter Pan's Flight? Now, I know that Neverland Adventure isn't Disney C, but I can't name any attractions across any Walt Disney World parks, for example, that basically feature the same storyline and appear twice within one major property. Which leads me to believe that Disney does have a sense that Peter Pan's Flight doesn't deliver on all of the magic Peter Pan actually has to offer. The Peter Pan sequence in PhilharMagic and what I'm seeing in this DisneySEA attraction feel far closer to that magic factor that I was talking about earlier. Now, I'm not saying that Disney should scrap Peter Pan's Flight and drop Neverland Adventure in. I would absolutely understand folks who would say that they don't want Peter and Friends only appearing on screens in a decidedly modern-looking form that is not exactly like the film. But the animatronic screen combo seems to be where it's at technology-wise, across any theme park, like just look at Universal and look at, you know, Epic Universe. And I can very much see Peter Pan's Flight incorporating screens along with the practical sets and animatronics, but updated animatronics, please. And thank you. Even if the ride remained the same duration, which it would have to, since there's no room in Fantasyland to actually expand it physically, this would go a long way towards making it feel like the unending cue is for something a bit more substantial. The Tokyo DisneySEA of it all brings me to what Peter Pan exemplifies for me, which is that in many ways, Disney is phoning it in when it comes to Fantasyland, and we deserve better. I will, of course, start by saying that yes, the Disney World version of New Fantasyland, the expansion that opened in December 2012, is excellent. I mean, first of all, she's gorgeous. The theming the theming and the immersion into the world of Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is everything. But now it does feel at odds with the rest of Fantasyland, which still lives in that medieval fair land with ride facades.

Conor Perkins 30:39

Fucking nuts.

Caroline Aimetti 30:41

Including that of Peter Pan's Flight, which has those tent elements to it.

Conor Perkins 30:44

It's a Small World, which is like shoved deep down. You can't even see it.

Caroline Aimetti 30:49

I mean, especially when you think about what It's a Small World, it's a Disneyland. It's a joke. I mean, it's a joke. New Fantasyland is very much the new Disney aesthetic and the aesthetic of any theme park update these days, full immersion. You're in that IP, period. But the existing original Fantasyland is limited by space, and the facades have to remain in that fair, tent, generic fantasy aesthetic in order to explain how different IPs are literally living on top of one another. But deep immersion was the original point of Fantasyland. Disneyland's Fantasyland was allegedly Walt's favorite land in the park. He said of it, " what youngster has not dreamed of flying with Peter Pan over moonlit London or tumbling into Alice's nonsensical wonderland? In Fantasyland, these classic stories of everyone's youth have become realities for youngsters of all ages to participate in." If we can't do for Peter and Pooh what we've done for Snow White by creating their full worlds, the least we can do is make their attractions as immersive as possible. And Peter Pan's Flight is just not immersive enough anymore. But Disney has this kind of, well, if it ain't broke attitude when it comes to Fantasyland. Epcot's Frozen Ever After has already received animatronic updates as a 10-year-old ride. And you're telling me one of the park's most classic and popular attractions doesn't deserve the same.

Conor Perkins 32:36

Yeah. Cause like I can't remember whether it's Shanghai or Hong Kong or if it's Tokyo's Peter Pan's Flight. But like their Peter Pan's Flight operates very similarly to all of the other Peter Pan's Flight, but the effects are like you go through the window, but like the window opens up. Opens.

Caroline Aimetti 32:54

I've seen that.

Conor Perkins 32:55

Like there's there's just like subtle things.

Caroline Aimetti 32:57

There's the Tinkerbell pixie effects that we're seeing in the queue.

Conor Perkins 33:01

Yes, there's projection mapping onto your galleon. So like when at the end, like it it gets showered in gulf, like just little things that amp up Walt's original vision. So it feels like both. And I'm like, there's no excuse why that is now not the standard in all the parks.

Caroline Aimetti 33:21

There isn't. There isn't. And it's just sad to me, like that ain't that, you know, if it ain't broke attitude.

Conor Perkins 33:27

It is broke.

Caroline Aimetti 33:28

Yeah, it's because it's broke. Yeah, it's broke. But it's also like you're seeing all these families give up so much of their day for this. And you're like, yeah, that's about as much as you deserve. That's what it feels like to me. And I really love that, especially considering how much families have to work and save up to go to the parks now.

Conor Perkins 33:43

T.

Caroline Aimetti 33:44

And this is all besides the point that all of the dark rides featuring classic Disney films and characters in Fantasy Springs and Tokyo Disneyland blow basically anything Walt Disney World has to offer out of the water, which we could do multiple episodes on. Yeah. I'm trying not to go too deep, but it's hard. Now, I'm talking about this mostly in an emotional rather than practical way. Fantasyland, like I said, is insanely limited by space. But what I mean here is the general attitude Disney seems to have for the land. It has never stopped drawing crowds, so whatever, right? But bizarre, Disney has always seemed kind of confused about what guests want out of Fantasyland. At D23 in 2009, Disney shared the original plans for New Fantasyland that included three Disney princess homes, none of which included rides. Guests were going to visit Cinderella in her chateau. They were going to watch her transform into her ball gown. They were going to train as her knight and help her prep for the ball. So basically Enchanted Tales with Belle, but Cinderella. Then there would be Aurora's Cottage, where you would help the three fairies prep for Aurora's Sweet 16 by making her birthday cards and then giving them to her.

Conor Perkins 35:01

What's I want to I wanna like I want to put my family into debt to go make birthday cards.

Caroline Aimetti 35:08

I'm sorry. No. Oh and and Bell's cottage was going to be there too. So that's three meet and greets with relatively lame activities and low capacities. I'm sorry, but I just don't think that this is what guests ever wanted. Now, Enchanted Tales with Belle is cool, and having one interactive meet and greet show is fine.

Conor Perkins 35:34

Also, the capacity for that is pretty. You can get you can get you can get a decent amount of people in.

Caroline Aimetti 35:40

It's not bad, and it's a different type of experience, and it's the only one, so it's fine. And be our guest restaurant also gets it very right. We want to eat in that ballroom. Issues with the pricing and sometimes the food aside. Sure. But right now in Fantasyland, there simply aren't enough dark style family-friendly rides. We have Peter Pan's Flight, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, It's a Small World, and Under the Sea: Journey of The Little Mermaid. That's four. Disneyland's Fantasyland is home to Peter Pan's Flight, Snow White's Enchanted Wish, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, Pinocchio's Daring Journey, Alice in Wonderland, and It's a Small World. That's six.

Conor Perkins 36:20

Six.

Caroline Aimetti 36:21

The area that Snow White's Scary Adventures in Walt Disney World occupied became Princess Fairy Tale Hall. Now I get it. We need a princess spot in Magic Kingdom for sure. But the elimination of a dark ride option there feels like a mistake to me. But I also know that a dark ride in that space probably couldn't live up to the Enchanted Tale of Beauty and the Beast, Neverland Adventure, Anna and Elsa's Frozen Journey, or Rapunzel's Lantern Festival, all of which are in Tokyo. But all of those rides are exactly what Disney World's Fantasyland deserves. So back to my original query here. Why is Peter Pan's Flight so popular? Well, now we know capacity issues and nostalgia are the most major factors. But beyond that, I believe it's because guests are starved for the things we really want out of Fantasyland, which I think can be summed up like this: high capacity dark rides that aren't too fast moving or frightening, whose vehicles or styles reflect the magic of their specific films, i.e., flying with Peter Pan or being in a boat for Tangled or vehicles that can dance for Beauty and the Beast. They should capture the magic of classic Disney with some kind of technological twist. This is what will create new nostalgia. Adults take their kids on Peter Pan's Flight because they remember it from their childhoods, and that's great. And we should lose neither that possibility nor an attraction that has so much of Walt's touch. But new additions should be equally as magical so they can become the rides today's kids look back on and want to bring their families on. And don't even get me started on the fact that Walt Disney World's Fantasyland should be home to Tangled, Beauty and the Beast, and even Frozen Rides at the bare minimum. I don't even care that we have Frozen and Epcot. Honestly, split the crowds between the two so those of us not willing to wait hours can maybe get on.

Conor Perkins 38:22

Yeah, bring back The Maelstrom.

Caroline Aimetti 38:25

But these films are our modern classics, and they are deeply underrepresented in ride form. Because at what point will we truly have let it go too far? I really believe a time will come where Peter Pan's Flight as it stands is simply going to be too creaky and dusty to be worthwhile anymore.

Conor Perkins 38:47

Yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 38:47

And that's my rant.

Conor Perkins 38:49

Damn. I mean, you're right. Like, we're getting to the point. I mean, we're at the point.

Caroline Aimetti 38:55

We're there.

Conor Perkins 38:55

Tin foil isn't isn't isn't cutting it.

Caroline Aimetti 38:58

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 38:59

Tin foil isn't cutting it when you can walk through the magic mirror like a hundred, a couple hundred feet away. Tin foil isn't cutting it. Hell, for that matter, when you can bounce along with Tigger.

Caroline Aimetti 39:12

A hundred percent.

Conor Perkins 39:12

And have a pepper's ghost illusion of Pooh flying through the air into have lumps and woozles.

Caroline Aimetti 39:18

Like 100%.

Conor Perkins 39:19

Tin foil ain't cutting it.

Caroline Aimetti 39:21

It's not. And those animals. Tin foil ain't. I love it. And those animatronics are not cutting it anymore.

Conor Perkins 39:29

No, like they barely move their face.

Caroline Aimetti 39:31

And and listen, I actually don't think the animatronic, like the Ariel animatronic in Under the Sea is also not okay.

Conor Perkins 39:37

No.

Caroline Aimetti 39:38

We we gotta work. That's what I'm saying. It's just like work on it, people. And and I am, we know this. We are 1000% for the villains land. But I don't know. I think we could have figured out a way to work on Fantasyland, give it more space. It's a it would be a huge, wild undertaking. But let's be real, that's kind of the heart of the whole thing that we're doing here, right? It's yeah. I think it deserves a lot of work. Like I said, in the 80s, they were willing to knock down Snow White and start from scratch. And I'm looking for that kind of energy now. And I just know in the way that the parks are being run right now, it's not gonna happen. I know it. But I really wish it would because we deserve a Beauty and the Beast ride in Fantasyland. We deserve a Tangled boat ride. Tangled is a bathroom. It's kind of ridiculous.

Conor Perkins 40:31

But what's what's insane is the Tangled bathrooms offer more immersion into Tangled than Peter Pan's Flight does, and they're right next to each other.

Caroline Aimetti 40:42

Absolutely correct.

Conor Perkins 40:43

And one is a ride, one is a ride, and one is a bathroom.

Caroline Aimetti 40:46

It's a bathroom. I feel more immersed in Peter Pan in the scene in PhilharMagic than I do on this ride. If I brought somebody on there who had never been, they know I'm obsessed with Disney. They know also that it costs you a pretty penny, and then I would bring them on that ride, I would expect them to judge me a little bit.

Conor Perkins 41:06

Yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 41:06

Yeah. It doesn't cut it.

Conor Perkins 41:08

I mean, I think that there is some sort of like intangible magic that will always be a part of even the creakiest version of Peter Pan's Flight.

Caroline Aimetti 41:17

I know, I know.

Conor Perkins 41:19

You cannot justify a price point like a Disney park on that alone. And that's kind of what they're doing with Peter Pan's Flight.

Caroline Aimetti 41:29

And it's just like if you want to take the stance of preserving because of history and nostalgia, I understand. But again, I have to go back to the Frozen Ever After example. They were like, these animatronics are not cutting it. We're not changing the ride, but these animatronics have to go. Why is nobody saying that about this ride? Because they have to go.

Conor Perkins 41:48

Yeah. And I'm like, you don't have to, they don't have to change the the track, but where's the projection mapping? Projection mapping, new animatronics. Add in some, yeah, add in some animatronics that actually like do something as opposed to go like Right. Like, come on.

Caroline Aimetti 42:03

Like that's the thing, too, is you're you're in this very much montage version of the story. You're expecting me to believe that this fight is sort of happening and then it's suddenly it's resolved. Well, then at the very least, those two actually need to look like they're fighting that there's some sort of peril happening there because otherwise, why do I care?

Conor Perkins 42:21

Which overseas they do, they project an actual fight scene onto the sales. And I'm like, it's that simple. It's that simple. Because my favorite parts of Peter Pan's Flight as well, I'm like, it's it's the models.

Caroline Aimetti 42:36

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 42:36

It's it's the it's and just the concept of flying through the window of the nursery, magical.

Caroline Aimetti 42:41

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Because it's immersive and establishing. It takes its time.

Conor Perkins 42:46

I almost would rather get rid of all of the scenes reenacting portions of the film and just be like, let's just fly over different parts of Neverland.

Caroline Aimetti 42:57

Yeah. Cause like I said, the thrill of this ride is the is the flight aspect. It's not seeing the movie play out in front of you in any way, shape, or form. Yep, let's just fly.

Conor Perkins 43:05

Let's just fly.

Caroline Aimetti 43:06

It's a scenic flight. Give me, I love, I love the music loop. Blast me with the music loop. Maybe even give me some smells. I don't know. And just have a be a nice, leisurely flight over Neverland. It's good enough for me.

Conor Perkins 43:19

Like Mermaid Lagoon, blow it up. Give me some- Let me see the mermaid.

Caroline Aimetti 43:24

Splashed a little. Let the water... I don't know. Like I know there are gonna be people out there who are upset by this because it's so it is like the classic at this point.

Conor Perkins 43:36

Okay, but also like I was someone who Peter Pan's Flight was my favorite ride. Like as a kid, I was like, we all got to choose like one ride that was a must do. Peter Pan's Flight was that for me.

Caroline Aimetti 43:47

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 43:48

And I can sit here and say, yeesh.

Caroline Aimetti 43:51

And there are just so many things that are getting equivalent attention, and I just don't understand why this isn't it's possible. So I don't understand why this isn't one of those things.

Conor Perkins 44:02

Yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 44:03

I've previously been like, oh, you know, they probably don't really get all up in there because it's such a huge draw and they don't want to take this away from people who are there. First of all, yes, there will be people who are going to be disappointed when that ride is closed for an update. But now that I know the capacity, I'm like, it's not like it's we're overflowing the park if that ride is closed. The capacity is ass.

Conor Perkins 44:27

Yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 44:28

Wild.

Rave (Conor)

Conor Perkins 44:30

Wild. Well.

Caroline Aimetti 44:31

Tell me about a ride that's getting all of this right.

Conor Perkins 44:35

I don't I don't know if this is getting it all right.

Caroline Aimetti 44:39

But it's doing a hell of a lot of a better job. Yeah.

Conor Perkins 44:42

It's it's doing a better job, it's doing as good of a job as I think you can do in Fantasyland right now. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. This zany dark ride/acid trip based on Walt Disney's animated adaptation of Kenneth Grahame's classic, The Wind in the Willows, is still to this day a beloved attraction. I mean, who can resist a casual car accident and descent into hell on your family vacation?

Caroline Aimetti 45:11

Yeah, I love it.

Conor Perkins 45:12

They just don't make them like they used to, folks.

Caroline Aimetti 45:15

I love that weird shit, baby.

Conor Perkins 45:17

Being an East Coaster who visits Walt Disney World as my primary Disney park, I was never able to experience this ride for myself before it closed in Magic Kingdom, though. I have sought out as much camcorder footage of the ride as possible and watched many a ride-through POV video of its still operational Disneyland counterpart.

Caroline Aimetti 45:36

Another reason why we need to get you to Disneyland.

Conor Perkins 45:39

Truly, truly do.

Caroline Aimetti 45:40

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 45:41

But as a fervent fan and unapologetic admirer of our resident amphibian queen, J. Thaddeus Toad, I say with every ounce of love and respect, it was right that Mr. Toad's wild ride closed in Magic Kingdom. While the ride will always remain, without a doubt, a classic, its removal from Walt Disney World brought about one of the most successful replacements of an attraction and important dark rides in Disney Park's history. And the focus of my rave today, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. So my sources for this rave include stuff from Thrill Data, Dark Ride Database, and Disney Park's Wiki. So let's hit you with some background information, because that's what we do. The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh opened in Fantasyland of Magic Kingdom in Walt Disney World on June 5th, 1999. The attraction replaced Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, which was an opening day attraction for Walt Disney World and closed permanently on September 7th, 1998. In the Magic Kingdom, the ride is located in Fantasyland in the Enchanted Forest area, which is beside the Mad Tea Party and across from the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, near the transition between Fantasyland and Tomorrowland. The attraction exits through the Hundred Acre Goods gift shop, which sells all manner of Winnie the Pooh and Friends merchandise and is next to storybook treats.

Caroline Aimetti 47:07

I love this gift.

Conor Perkins 47:10

I love it.

Caroline Aimetti 47:11

I always find something cute in there. Yeah, I love it.

Conor Perkins 47:14

Oh age height restrictions? There are none. Anybody can go on this ride. Anybody can go on this ride. The attraction utilizes honeypot-shaped ride vehicles with two rows, seating about four adults. You can probably squeeze in more people if they're children. And the ride is able to accommodate approximately 850 guests per hour, which, you know, in comparison to Ariel's Undersea Adventure, is ass.

Caroline Aimetti 47:42

It's only like about, yeah, it's only like about 50 more people per hour than Peter Pan.

Conor Perkins 47:47

Yeah, but it is an improvement.

Caroline Aimetti 47:48

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Conor Perkins 47:51

The ride has an all-time average wait time of 29 minutes. And the average lightning lane pass sellout time over the past 30 days is 12.08 p.m. So it's popular. Uh and the ride duration, it is three minutes and 15 seconds long. So I will give you an overview of the Magic Kingdom version of the attraction from the Disney Parks wiki. The ride vehicles go out of the load area and arrive near a giant storybook showing Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin. The vehicles arrive in the Hundred-Acre Wood during a rather blustery day, with Piglet holding onto a broom while being spun around. Pooh is holding onto a balloon while trying to reach for some honey, while Eeyore patronizes him. Meanwhile, Roo begins to blow away as Kanga holds on to him. In Owl's home, everything is scattered about, including a rather curious picture of J. Thaddeus Toad himself handing a deed over to Owl. There is also a picture of Winnie the Pooh greeting Moley, Mr. Toad's sidekick. That's what they say, but he's not Mr. Toad's sidekick. He's just, he's Moley, which is flat on the floor to the right. And these replace a subtle tribute to Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, the ride that many adventures of Winnie the Pooh replaced at the Magic Kingdom. The ride then passes a second giant storybook page where suddenly Tigger bounces out whilst the ride vehicles begin to bounce like Tigger. The ride follows Tigger through the Hundred-Acre Wood where he randomly pops up. Tigger bounces upside down at one point before the ride moves on to Pooh's home, and it transpires that Tigger has pinned Pooh on the floor as he tells him about heffa lumps and woozles. Once in Pooh's house, Pooh falls asleep and magically floats up into the sky as the room blackens and is lit up by fiber optics. The ride vehicles then move into a strange room as Pooh floats through. There are objects with eyes and mouths, while giant woozles with jack in the box necks move in front of the guests. The ride moves around some very strange objects. A purple woozle lights a heffalump, causing a giant smoke ring to come from its trunk, and a giant heffalump has holes that reveal the way out of the heffalump scene. Other funhouse effects are seen as the vehicles make an escape out of the heffalump scene, indicated by an umbrella and a watering can pouring rain over a pot of honey. After this, the vehicles arrive in a room painted with rain and cloud patterns as thunder and lightning go off and then re-enter the Hundred-Acre Wood, which is experiencing a rainstorm. The ride vehicles begin to float, and Eeyore complains about the wind and then about the rain. Gopher scorts water out of his mouth. Roo, Rabbit, Tigger, and Owl attempt to save Piglet from floating away, and the ride vehicles move to find Pooh stuck in a hive in a tree with only his bottom showing. The vehicles move into the final scene where everyone apart from Pooh is celebrating that the rain has gone away. Piglet is a sculpted figure with movement, while Tigger, Rabbit, Eeyore, Owl, Kanga, and Roo are illustrations on the wall behind to signify them going back into the storybook. And the vehicles move past Pooh, enjoying a load of honey as Pooh says, Oh, please start the party without me. And then everyone goes past the page that reads the end before arriving back in the load area. So that's what Disney Parks wiki the whole thing. Um let's talk renovations and refurbishments. So in 2010, the ride received a new interactive queue resembling different locations from the Hundred-Acre Wood, including Rabbit's Garden, which is a hide-and-seek game with gophers, vegetables that play music and a crawl-through tunnel formed by stacked crates, like a little mini playground. Honey walls, which are giant touch screens that are overflowing with honey that guests can draw shapes in to reveal characters underneath, Piglet's house and Eeyore's house. After Walt Disney's animated film adaptation of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh and the rise in popularity of the character, Disney Imagineers began planning a Winnie the Pooh attraction for Disneyland in the late 1970s. It was slated to go into Fantasyland, which would soon be undergoing renovations. But when those new Fantasyland renovations opened in 1983, the attraction never came to be. Later in the 80s, after the success of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Disneyland began developing an expansion to the park called Toontown. It was here that Disney Imagineers were finally going to realize a Winnie the Pooh attraction, which would be a dark ride where guests ride in spinnable honeypots through scenes from three Winnie the Pooh featurettes. However, before this concept reached its fruition, it was scrapped, and Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Sspin went into the space it would have occupied and used the ride system intended for the Winnie the Pooh attraction. As Pooh began to have a resurgence in popularity in the 90s from the new adventures of Winnie the Pooh television series and further adaptations, Disney decided to take another look at where an attraction for Winnie the Pooh could finally go, this time looking across the country and Walt Disney World. Plans were approved for the Magic Kingdom in Fantasyland, which was much larger than Disneyland's area and could accommodate a new attraction, though Imagineers opted to replace Mr. Toad's Wild Ride instead, which caused an uproar among fans of the attraction who literally protested its closing. Ultimately, Disney went through the with the closing of the attraction to make way for The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, presumably to save money and time in making use of the existing attraction space. And the new ride opened less than a year after Mr. Toad's Wild Ride closed in June of 1999.

Caroline Aimetti 53:39

Take me back.

Conor Perkins 53:41

Less than a year.

Caroline Aimetti 53:42

Oh my God.

Conor Perkins 53:44

They cranked out many adventures of Winnie the Pooh.

Caroline Aimetti 53:48

Okay.

Conor Perkins 53:48

Okay.

Caroline Aimetti 53:49

Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Conor Perkins 53:51

Since opening in Walt Disney World, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh dark ride attractions have opened in Disneyland, Shanghai Disneyland, Hong Kong Disneyland, and a trackless Winnie the Pooh themed dark ride opened in Tokyo Disneyland called Pooh's Hunny Hunt.

Caroline Aimetti 54:06

Obsessed with it. I need to get on it.

Conor Perkins 54:09

I'm obsessed with it. I do too.

Caroline Aimetti 54:10

We need to go to Tokyo. That's the theme of this episode. Take me to Tokyo.

Conor Perkins 54:15

So I know that's a lot of history and description, but I wanted us to have all of that because this changeover was probably one of the most emotional replacements in Walt Disney World that they had done in a very long time, certainly in the Magic Kingdom. And I think when you're able to take a step back and look at what happened here with The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, you'd see that this was a really successful replacement. And much of what we can say is working falls more or less into two categories: the use of Disney's intellectual property, IP, and the overall legacy of the attraction. So let's start with IP. As we know, using existing and popular IP and attractions isn't everything. I am a firm believer in highlighting obscure characters and stories as a way of introducing people to movies that they might not have ordinarily seen. And certainly I am a staunch advocate of creating new IP that only exists in attraction format. That being said, there is one particular place in Disney that I think putting popular, family-friendly IP forward is really important. And that's Fantasyland. Fantasyland is naturally geared more towards children and families than any of the other lands of the Magic Kingdom, and has an incredibly wide birth of what attractions and characters can be housed there. It's then really important that Fantasyland gets the biggest bang for its buck in terms of what IP calls Fantasyland home. First of all, IP extends beyond just a character, it extends to iconic settings as well. Guests are looking for an escape, and even more so now, immersion. They want to hop right into their favorite movies. The more fantastic, the better, and Fantasyland is the place to do it. The Hundred-Acre Wood is one of those absolutely iconic storybook fantasy worlds that you want to visit, like Wonderland, like Narnia, and like Neverland. When considering an attraction and its IP that should go into Fantasyland, Winnie the Pooh's Hundred-Acre Wood is kind of a no-brainer. It's pure fantasy and appeals to children while also being timeless enough to reach people of all ages. And when considering that against the English countryside Toad Hall and, you know, hell of Mr. Toad's wild ride, the Hundred-Acre Wood is so clearly the stronger, more immersive, and just generally more appealing choice of locale for Fantasyland.

Caroline Aimetti 57:05

Oh man.

Conor Perkins 57:06

Next point, and probably the most obvious one. Mr. Toad is a niche Disney character, whereas Pooh is an icon. I love Toad, but I'm not fucking delusional people. Mr. Toad appeared in one part of an animated anthology film from 1949, the second half of that anthology being a spooky thriller/ghost story that a lot of young children probably weren't watching either before or after riding Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

Caroline Aimetti 57:39

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 57:40

By the time of the attractions closing in the 90s, most folks, especially children who, as we know, tend to set up shop in Fantasyland, they probably didn't know who Mr. Toad was. And the people who were the staunchest supporters of the attractions sticking around were speaking more out of nostalgia than anything else.

Caroline Aimetti 57:58

There it is again. Also, I don't think I ever wrote it when I went as a kid to Walt Disney World. I don't think I went on it a single time.

Conor Perkins 58:07

The first time I went was the fall of 1998. It had just closed. Literally, my dad was like, Oh, and then we're gonna do Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. We rounded the corner and the walls were up. And he was like, What? It had happened that fast. But then by the next time I went as a kid, Winnie the Pooh was already there. And like, listen, listen, people, the the transition from Mr. Toad's Wild Ride to Winnie the Pooh, while not like insane, was still still kind of an insane transition. And they did it in less than a year.

Caroline Aimetti 58:41

Mr. Toad is very cardboard cutout box.

Conor Perkins 58:45

And that thing was two separate tracks.

Caroline Aimetti 58:49

Right.

Conor Perkins 58:49

I don't know what the fuck they did what they're doing now, but they need to hustle back to some of that 1998 energy.

Caroline Aimetti 58:56

80s and 90s, they had the hustle. They had the hustle.

Conor Perkins 58:59

They did. But back to this. Winnie the Pooh is a timeless literary and film character whose Disney iteration has, for most people, become the standard version of the character. Moreover, Pooh is one of those iconic characters, much like Tinkerbell and Jiminy Cricket, that has become synonymous with the Disney brand. Pooh and Friends are characters that people want and expect to see at the parks. But up until that point, the Winnie the Pooh characters were only represented as character dining at the Crystal Palace. That's a pretty limited offering for a character that is so universally beloved and certainly one having an active resurgence of popularity in the 90s. Knowing that there were plans to represent this character in an attraction for give or take 20 years, it was rightly a matter of time until Pooh got his ride. And that sort of segues into my last point regarding IP, which is that prime real estate in Fantasyland demands a prime character. When Mr. Toad's Wild Ride was still operational, the only two attractions on that side of Fantasyland were Mr. Toad's and the Mad Tea Party. Given the number of fantasy stories that Disney had adapted at the time, it's a lot of space to devote to a more obscure, not as fantastical story. In fact, at the time of its operation, more guests could interact with Mr. Toad and his story than Winnie the Pooh. Again, only guests who could manage a reservation at the Crystal Palace could get access to Pooh and friends. Pretty wild. From an operational standpoint, that's not great. You want guests to be able to see the characters that are inspiring them to make the trip. That's a return on investment that gets people coming back. Character dining simply doesn't allow as much access to an IP as an attraction that can hold hundreds of guests per hour. With the way that Mr. Toad's wild ride was set up, there were two separate tracks with cars that only sat two people. After the ride became The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, the attraction was seating four adults per car and moving more guests through the attraction per hour than Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and even Peter Pan's Flight. Objectively, that is a much more efficient use of that attraction space, giving more people access to the characters that they want to see in a way that fits seamlessly into the area's theming. So while there's a lot of emotion around the IP that is Mr. Toad and nostalgia for an opening day attraction like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, the changeover of IP to Winnie the Pooh in the Hundred-Acre Wood was the right move and ultimately a successful one. The other half of what we look for in a successful replacement is the overall impact of that attraction. This is certainly not to say that Mr. Toad's Wild Ride does not leave behind a great legacy on Disney Parks. On the contrary, it's an attraction that leaves such an incredible legacy that it makes the task for The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh that much more difficult. But I would say that the Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh rises to the occasion and that the loss of Mr. Toad's Wild Ride in Walt Disney World is not as much of a loss as it would seem. So let's look at some of the ways in which that shows up here. The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh is now a classic mainstay attraction at the Magic Kingdom. It's one of those memory-making attractions for people because of how accessible it is. There's no height requirement, and the ride vehicles can easily accommodate entire parties, making it one of those rare rides that everyone can all ride and experience together. But on the flip side, unlike attractions like It's a Small World or Pirates of the Caribbean, the ride vehicles are small enough that your experience feels private. That combination of an attraction that can privately accommodate entire parties is not as common in the Magic Kingdom as you would think. And that, especially for guests visiting the first time, is very powerful. It creates a shared memory attached to that attraction that people return to each time they visit the park. That is classic attraction material. Like I'll never forget riding the Winnie the Pooh ride with my family and getting stuck while bouncing along with Tigger. We reference it even now. And that's part of why, like, even on my last visit, when it was just me and my older sister, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh was an attraction that we had to do when the opportunity presented itself.

Caroline Aimetti 1:03:44

It is for me too. Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:03:45

Like it was late at night, there was no line, and we were like, let's go do Pooh. Cause you do it.

Caroline Aimetti 1:03:50

And that's and that's when like you bring a child to Disney World for the first time, and the whole family can watch them see the ride.

Conor Perkins 1:03:57

The whole family, like that's that is not nothing.

Caroline Aimetti 1:04:02

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:04:02

Like, yeah. When you have to split, if you're a family of four, if you're a standard family of four, squeezing into the pirate ship galleons of Peter Pan, they won't let you. It's gonna be a good thing. They won't let you do it.

Caroline Aimetti 1:04:13

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:04:14

Even going into Ariel's Undersea Adventure, it's it can be a tight squeeze on those things. Yeah, you can't do it really on Haunted Mansion. There's something very unique in those ride vehicles for the many adventure of Winnie the Pooh.

Caroline Aimetti 1:04:27

I never really thought about that, but that does make such a big difference.

Conor Perkins 1:04:30

Yeah, it is a accommodating private experience. Also, in regards to legacy, this year The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh will have existed in Magic Kingdom for 27 years, which is just as long as Mr. Toad's wild ride existed.

Caroline Aimetti 1:04:47

Wow!

Conor Perkins 1:04:48

To replace an opening day attraction, you better be a damn good ride. And Winnie the Pooh is. Otherwise, it wouldn't have lasted this long. If the ride wasn't working, if it wasn't popular among guests, Disney had plenty of opportunities to call this a bust and replace it. And it's not like there isn't a plethora of other Disney fantasy IP that could take its place. During the new Fantasyland expansion, it would have been so easy to overhaul this ride into something new if it wasn't working. But instead, they enhanced it and made it more immersive. There was such demand for the ride that guests would complain about the queue being difficult for kids to wait in during long wait times. But even just taking the ride for what it is, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh was important in pushing forward dark ride technology. The attraction integrates physical sets, animatronics, projection mapping, classic funhouse dark ride sets and illusions, and an inventive track system meant to simulate bouncing and floating through water. In the 90s, this was a big step in showing what all could be done in a dark ride attraction as opposed To those big budget thrill rides, we were looking to make attractions feel more immersive and tactile for guests. And I'm honestly shocked that in less than a year, they were able to deliver that on many adventures of Winnie the Pooh with really a completely different track system. And lastly, in terms of legacy of this replacement, as a direct result of its success, four additional attractions themed around Winnie the Pooh have opened in Disney parks all around the world in California, Tokyo, Shanghai, and Hong Kong. And most are more or less a direct copy of Walt Disney World's version of the ride. These rides wouldn't necessarily exist if Disney hadn't finally taken the plunge and built this ride as a replacement for Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. But I think its biggest legacy is that this attraction brought about what is recognized as the first true trackless attraction in a Disney theme park, which is Pooh's Hunny Hunt. Walt Disney Imagineering created a new type of trackless attraction using sensors and a custom local positioning system instead of other trackless attractions on the market that have a dedicated wire embedded in the floor. According to the Disney Wiki and the Disney Imagineer patent, "this control system works by directional data being relayed from a master control computer directly to the vehicles, which is then used to move an individual honeypot through a complicated matrix embedded within the floor tiles. Every few seconds, the master computer generates a random path and steers the honeypot in real time. So as the cars roll through the ride, the vehicles are in fact being told where to go. Because this system is in real time, they can maneuver accordingly in just fractions of a second. This also allows for spontaneous yet synchronized honeypot choreography with groups of honey pots, as many as eight in a single show, appearing to dance with the others, often timed with beats in the music. Due to limitless variations possible, each journey through the attraction is unique." Without Pooh's Hunny Hunt, this technology would not have existed to create tractions like Remy's Ratatouille Adventure, Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway, and Star Wars: Rise of the Resistance. And without The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh successfully replacing Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and being built in parks across the world, we wouldn't have been trying to find new ways to innovate with Dark Rides and Winnie the Pooh in Pooh's Hunny Hunt. So yeah, the removal of Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is slash was an emotional gut punch. But the success of its replacement with The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh is undeniable, both in capitalizing off a more beloved and fitting IP for Fantasyland and in its legacy bringing Winnie the Pooh attractions to four additional parks across the world and innovating what could be done in a dark ride. And all is not lost for our dear J. Thaddeus Toad because the attraction is not gone forever. The original ride still exists in Disneyland, has been refurbished, and honestly is a much better and prettier version of the attraction. I mean, you just have to look at the beautiful Toad Hall Tudor style facade of the ride, yeah. To breathe a sigh of relief. It was under the same old crappy medieval fair tent bullshittery before.

Caroline Aimetti 1:09:48

Like, no, that's what I'm saying. Like they got that replaced with beautiful. They got it replaced, and it's right village look. It's right. Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:09:57

Disney is still committed to this attraction, and knock on wood, it doesn't seem to be headed toward extinction/defunct status anytime soon. And listen, if we want to bring Mr. Toad's Wild ride back to Disney World, there's a place for it. The UK Pavilion in Epcot.

Caroline Aimetti 1:10:17

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:10:18

With the direction of the world showcase shifting to bring more IP into the different pavilions, it honestly would kind of be a great fit. We could use another dark ride in that area. They wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel because the ride plans already exist. The Tudor facade from the Disneyland version of the attraction would blend perfectly with the architecture of the pavilion. And the part that's important to me, the wind in the willows is a direct showcase of English culture. More than the Hundred-Acre Wood, which is a fantasy world of a British boy, Christopher Robin, Kenneth Grahame's The Wind in the Willows shows us a romanticized English countryside, wildlife, and traditions through the seasons. It would, in my opinion, be the better fit for the UK pavilion out of the two to still feel like a showcase of culture, like all the best rides in the world showcased do. In 1929, a British author and playwright wrote the first dramatization of Kenneth Grahame's novel The Wind in the Willows. The play was entitled Toad of Toad Hall, and that playwright was none other than A.A. Milne, the beloved author of Winnie the Pooh. If we need any other signs or whispers of fate, I think we look no further than that. Mr. Toad still has his home at Toad Hall and room to expand if he and the Disney Parks gods choose. The Hundred-Acre Wood is more real now than it's ever been and continues to inspire Disney Imagineers to innovate and imagine what could be possible in an attraction. I think, all in all, things shook out the way that they were supposed to. And this replacement in the Magic Kingdom was truly one classic making room for another classic. That kind of transition is not easy and certainly full of growing pains. But in the end, it was a success because the Hundred-Acre Wood is big enough for us all.

Caroline Aimetti 1:12:15

That's my rave. It's so interesting to hear you talk about this right after the weekend when Dinosaur closed and MuppetVision recently closed, and people have these emotional reactions. And I do wonder 30 years from now, what will we be saying about those things that we feel so like so strongly are wrong in the moment? Whatever you say.

Conor Perkins 1:12:36

Yeah. I don't always think that they get it right.

Caroline Aimetti 1:12:39

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:12:40

Like to this day, I don't know if Frozen Ever After replacing The Maelstrom was the right call. But I do know, practically speaking, they needed to put a Frozen ride in.

Caroline Aimetti 1:12:51

And it's interesting, like I was very excited about the possibility of Cherry Tree Lane coming to the UK pavilion. But then when I found out what the ride was going to be, which seems like teacups, I was like, pass. If we could Peter Pan's Neverland Adventure-ify Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, sign me up.

Conor Perkins 1:13:11

Yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 1:13:12

It would be fabulous. Yeah. Through the English countryside.

Conor Perkins 1:13:15

It would look so classy.

Caroline Aimetti 1:13:17

Take a ride through the English countryside with screens, animatronics, blah, blah, blah. That's what I'm talking about.

Conor Perkins 1:13:23

Yeah. The Wind in the Willows is one of those classic pieces of British children's literature.

Caroline Aimetti 1:13:31

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:13:31

And it is so synonymous with England. And again, I think more so than the Hundred-Acre Wood. Winnie the Pooh certainly is synonymous with England, but you know, the Hundred-Acre Wood, it's a fantasy world. So it should be in Fantasyland.

Caroline Aimetti 1:13:46

Yeah. I want Mr. Toad to take me on a wild ride through England.

Conor Perkins 1:13:50

I do too. That'd be true. I do too. It would be classy AF and also not at all.

Caroline Aimetti 1:13:56

Yeah. And that's why it would be perfect.

Conor Perkins 1:13:59

Yeah. It feels very akin to me of the three caballeros in the Gran Fiesta tour.

Caroline Aimetti 1:14:05

Yep.

Conor Perkins 1:14:06

And also, for that matter, it it feels akin to Remy and Ratatouille in the France Pavilion.

Caroline Aimetti 1:14:11

It does.

Conor Perkins 1:14:12

Where it's it's a really great marriage of the IP supporting culture. I can't necessarily say the same for Frozen because Frozen takes place in Arendelle, which is a fantasy world. It is not Norway. It's inspired loose- like by Norway.

Caroline Aimetti 1:14:30

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:14:30

But it's not Norway.

Caroline Aimetti 1:14:32

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:14:32

That's why I think Frozen stuff should be in Fantasyland because it takes place in a fantasy world.

Caroline Aimetti 1:14:36

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:14:37

People, I know you're listening. Come talk to us.

Caroline Aimetti 1:14:40

Hey, Josh, as you move into your new role. I mean, I guess maybe you'll have less of a hand in this now, but just And Dana as chief creative officer. Absolutely.

Conor Perkins 1:14:51

Josh and Dana, can we put a meeting on the books? Please.

Caroline Aimetti 1:14:58

I'm into that. I'm into that.

Conor Perkins 1:15:00

I'm into it too. I never even really thought about that until I was writing this.

Caroline Aimetti 1:15:04

I'm really into it.

Conor Perkins 1:15:05

I was like, wait, they could actually, if they wanted to, put Mr. The footprint of Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is not a huge footprint of a, so it's not like a crazy amount of building that they would have to do for a show building. Like, and it would just be like another, another ride to take some of the heat off of the other attractions that are few and far between in the World Showcase. So yeah.

Caroline Aimetti 1:15:29

Also, you and I just need to go to Tokyo.

Conor Perkins 1:15:31

Bitch, we do.

Caroline Aimetti 1:15:32

Those are the rides we deserve.

Conor Perkins 1:15:34

And it's also just like so funny, like thinking about New Fantasyland. I'm like, New Fantasyland really walked so that Fantasy Springs could run.

Caroline Aimetti 1:15:44

Absolutely.

Conor Perkins 1:15:44

And I just like it is such the microcosm for what is happening in these parks that we have a forced perspective Beast's Castle, and Tokyo just built the whole damn castle.

Caroline Aimetti 1:15:58

And you get to ride through it.

Conor Perkins 1:16:00

And you get to walk through it. The cue is you walking through the castle. I'm like, I want to do that. Like I would be happy not even getting on the ride and just walking through the Beast's Castle. Because that's what we want to do. Listen, I'm not opposed to going to the to Briar Rose's cottage, but I don't want to make her a fucking birthday card.

Caroline Aimetti 1:16:21

This concept art ad was sending me, baby. It was sending me. Oh God. I'd be like the way they're describing, like, and give it to her. I couldn't. Oh my god. Please. Please.

Conor Perkins 1:16:34

How depressing is that?

Caroline Aimetti 1:16:36

I know.

Conor Perkins 1:16:36

Well, you know what? She would be in that really, really beautiful outfit.

Caroline Aimetti 1:16:40

No, she was in her princess outfit.

Conor Perkins 1:16:43

Unacceptable. She doesn't have the dress yet. She hasn't been given it yet.

Caroline Aimetti 1:16:47

That's like, yeah, if you're gonna dedicate an entire actual theme park to being Fantasyland, sure, throw those things in there. But we're working with limited space.

Conor Perkins 1:16:56

Not limited space here, people. Like, no.

Caroline Aimetti 1:16:59

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not in Fantasyland to draw pictures. Please. I want a t-shirt that.

Conor Perkins 1:17:10

I'm not in Fantasyland to draw pictures.

Caroline Aimetti 1:17:13

Oh my god.

Conor Perkins 1:17:15

Oh my god.

Caroline Aimetti 1:17:16

Can't.

Conor Perkins 1:17:17

All right. Well, those are our um our spicy and sweet thoughts on Fantasyland.

Caroline Aimetti 1:17:24

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:17:25

Uh and the dark rides that have set up shop there.

Caroline Aimetti 1:17:29

Yeah.

Conor Perkins 1:17:29

Um, thank you so much for joining us for this rant and rave. We hoped you like this episode. And if you didn't, don't tell us. But if you did, please make sure to hit follow or subscribe wherever you're listening to the podcast or watching it. Make sure that you leave a written review, uh, hit five stars, leave a comment, all that good stuff. And then once you do all that, hit the share button. Send this to a friend or family member who might enjoy this episode. Thank you.

Caroline Aimetti 1:17:54

Yes. Please also hit share uh on some of our content on social media. We are @poorunfortunatepodcast everywhere. Instagram, Facebook, TikTok question mark. We will keep you posted on that. Oh my God. Uh, Bluesky. You should definitely find us on Bluesky. Threads. Threads. We'll be sticking around those places for a while. Um, but just as we enter season five, it is so, so helpful when you do that to get our content in front of people who haven't seen it. That's how the podcast continues to grow. That's how we bring some really amazing, hopefully, guests and opportunities your way. So that's a free way that you can help us continue to create content that you hopefully love. And if you want even more Poor Unfortunate Podcast in your life, please join our private Facebook group or our Discord server. Those are the two places where the Poor Unfortunate Fam lives. That's a great way for Conor and I to know who's out there listening. It's where all of you listeners can get together and become friends, which has been happening, which is so amazing. And our fam just gets like early previews of things, opportunities for input on future episodes. So we would love to know who's out there and we would love to meet you in the fam.

Conor Perkins 1:19:04

And if you're looking for merch, the Poor Unfortunate Shop is open, poorunfortunatepodcast.com/shop. More merch stuff and our collaboration with Most Magical Printing Company, which I'm wearing one of the shirts right now. It's this amazing uh Spaceship Earth shirt that says Shining, Shimmering, Splendid. So cool. Go check it out.

Caroline Aimetti 1:19:24

So good.

Conor Perkins 1:19:24

Um, but our merch collaboration with Most Magical Printing Company will be launching soon. So stay tuned on our socials for when that happens. And if you want to support the podcast and get a little bit more for your money, join the Poor Unfortunate Patreon. All plans are under $10. And you'll be getting some "Caroline, What's New?" if you subscribe at the Trident level. Um, so if you want to make the podcast a weekly podcast for you, all you have to do is become a trident member. So you can join the poor unfortunate Patreon at patreon.com/poorunfortunatepodcast. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com slash poor unfortunate podcast. All righty. So that's episode one.

Caroline Aimetti 1:20:11

Woo! Season five.

Conor Perkins 1:20:13

Season five, baby. All right. Thank you all so much, and we will see you very soon. Until then... Beluga Sevruga!